Flags of an independent Scotland

[Sammy]

When it comes to Scotland leaving the United Kingdom, as is already been seen in the flags forum, the question is asked what would the UK Flag look like without it? But a friend asked me what flags would be used in an independent Scotland? I think the national flag the Saltire will remain but what about other flags? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_flags and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_flags all have flags that are used in Scotland. Coming from a naval tradition I thought what flags would be used at sea? But other flags are also at stake for example Royal flags, military and state flags ect I'll start with civil ensigns and jacks. The civil ensign will be the national flag, but Yacht clubs will use a standard sort of ensign just for them like Yacht clubs in the Republic of Ireland do http://www.flags.net/IREL14.htm. Civil or pilot jack would more than likely be a satire with a white boarder.

[Sammy]

State Flag can be a saltire defaced with the shield of the Royal Arms. This could be used by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency, Northern Lighthouse Board, coast guard, police and any other vessel that would have used the blue ensign. State jack could be a square saltire with a thistle and can be used by organisations listed as well an the navy. The Navy can have a Scottish white ensign with the Royal Shield an alternative naval jack might also have a crown. For more information visit my blog. http://samsflags.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09 ... 8556130891 I look forward to hearing other thoughts and proposals

[PaulJames]

The official colours of the Scottish flag use a lighter blue than in the Union Flag:

scotland.gif

Pre-union Scotland used a red ensign for both civil vessels and the Royal Scots Navy, so this might be revived, at least as a civil ensign:

scots red.gif

But I agree that a white ensign with the shield in the fly would be good for a naval ensign.

As for the northern lights, why not variations on the present flags, e.g. this for the Commissioners?:

northern lights.gif

and

[PaulJames]

... and this for their ensign:

scots nl2.gif

It might make sense if yacht clubs put their badges on the red ensign, since they are civil, not government, bodies.

I produced some ideas for an independent Wales (a much less likely possibility than an independent Scotland), which I'll try and post soon.

[Sammy]

I know the colours of St Andrews cross is light blue (Sky blue to fit in with the legend) however as these are Nautical flags I coloured them darker for the same reason the British Admiralty did, to reduce the effects of weather at sea but a fair point.
I was aware of the Scottish red ensign but I think taking into account the size of the country that it would make more sense to use the national flag for civil vessels including pleasure craft. I originally coloured the yacht ensigns red, but I didn't think it looked very well as blue and as the state ensign featured the shield and not all international civil ensigns are red I thought blue worked OK, but I accept Scotland would be in the commonwealth and still fallow the practice of a red ensign for civil ships, white for naval ect.
As Scottish versions of the current ensigns I think it would be impractical. Taking into account the size of the country, and how many vessels would wear the individual ensigns I think it would be simpler and easier for government vessels to wear one recognised state ensign rather than a lot of different ones, although individual jacks or pennants could be worn too. But I have to say I think your light blue northern lights ensign is awsome

[PaulJames]

I don't see why the size of the country should be an impediment to having a separate civil ensign. Much smaller countries than Scotland (and than Wales) fly separate civil ensigns, e.g. Bahamas, Fiji, Mauritius and Solomon Islands, all of which fly red ensigns of one sort or another. And I expect there would be many more vessels flying the Scots ensign than there were when it previously existed, before 1707.

I didn't think the light blue ensign would work ... until I produced it!

[Sammy]

Sorry I didn't mean to write about the size of the country for that point what I meant is unlike the Union Flag which is reserved for "King's Ships" or in today's case "Queen's Ships" the saltire has no restrictions of that nature on it (although who's to say that won't change if they go for independence.) So in the UK we need a separate flag to use the red ensign, (assuming) this would not be the case in an independent Scotland there is no real need for a separate ensign for a role the national flag could easily fill. I accept though it is the done thing for most commonwealth countries to adopt the red, white and blue ensign system and as you have said on the Welsh forum about not wanting to completely part with British symbolism, I would assume the same could be said with the Scots.

On a different note, The UK has responsibility of 13 overseas territories. What if one of these chose to become a Scottish territory after a UK break up? Now I doubt the Scots government would state a claim on any territory and it would only be if the citizens of the territory chose to be Scottish. After some quick research I found that all of the territories settled before the act of union were English colonies with no Scots ones still being under British sovereignty, but ones settled after the act of union had a lot of Scottish settlers. Anyway I think the most likely territory from a list of unlikely territories to chose that might chose Scottish sovereignty I think is Pitcairn Islands, as although settled after the act of union they were first sighted by a Scottish sailor and named after him. So here is proposal for Pitcairn Islands flag and governor's flag.
Based on Paul James's light blue ensign with the territory shield in the canton the other one is a saltire defaced with a shield. I was thinking one could be either the state and civil flag or one for uses on land and the other at sea, don't know which should be which though. The governor's flag has the shield with the lion rampant in the canton. This is because unlike the Royal Standard the Royal Banner of Scotland is used by representatives of the monarch in Scotland including lord Lieutenants and the first minister, it also is also over Royal residents in Scotland when the monarch is not in residence(UK Royal Standard used when the monarch is) I am not sure about the yellow field but it could easily be changed to blue. These could be applied to any territory that chaoses Scottish sovereignty (which to be honest is unlikely but fun designing)

[PaulJames]

I think the Pitcairn ensign needs some fimbriation round the shield, and, personally, I prefer the canton to occupy a full quarter of the flag (as on modern British ensigns):

scottish pitcairn.gif

Taking your idea that representatives of the Sovereign should use the Royal Standard in the canton (which I think makes sense, and then the standard on its own would be exclusively for the Sovereign), here's ideas for the Prime Minister, in his capacity as Keeper of the Great Seal of Scotland:

pm scotland.gif

And the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland:

lhc scotland.gif

[PaulJames]

... and if we're dividing territory up between England and Scotland, perhaps Northern Ireland should go with Scotland, since it was mostly Scots who went there during the 17th century plantations

scotland ni.gif

[Sammy]

In the case of the cross of St George or St Andrew I personally like the square version in the canton, especially in the case of the Royal Banner, which I should say looks far better on a blue field. The white fimbriation around the shield looks good The personnel flags are top notch too. I am unsure about displaying the full seal on the PM's flag though even though he is keeper of the Great Seal. What about taking the too main aspects of the seal which to me are the shield and crown on only using them?

I enjoyed your Northern Ireland idea, I think it would be a good idea because not only as you have mentioned do you have the legacy of the plantaion among the protestants, but the Gaelic Catholic culture would be similar to Highland culture. it is not unusual to actually see N.Irish versions of the Scottish flag for example here you have the saltire and red hand/thistle logo of the Ulster-Scots Community Network. The Flag used by Ulster Nationalist (not to be confused with Irish Nationalists) use the Irish Saltire placed on top of the Scottish one (although without any fimbriation) with a red hand and star and the last one a saltire with an Ulster banner shield, which is not a flag of any organisation but rather the kind you can easily get in shops.

My idea of a Scottish NI flag was based on yours except defaced with a hexigon/red hand. Then I thought why not make an ensign like other Scottish territories, with the shield in fly and saltire in canton. But I took this further and made a flag based on the Ulster flag with a saltire in the canton, which for me all this was very amusing but I think we shouldn't get too carried away as this is about Scotland rather than NI